Last week was a tough call as Mandarin (Infinitespeech) faced off against Professor Xavier (Tom McNeely). Both managers presented great rationales, and Speech continued his barrage in the forums. But for the second time this tournament, FatherJeff and myself disagreed with the public polls which named Mandarin as the winner. As unpopular as it was, we felt as though Xavier could do a better job of masking himself in the demonic realm of Limbo, resulting in Mandarin being on the defensive the entire time. Feel free to post your displeasure with this decision here in the forums, we love the feedback!

This week's fight features Wolverine (Dan Briand) versus Iron Fist (managed by Infinietspeech) in the demonic realm of Limbo.

Both Dan and Speech recorded live with Jeff and myself Sunday August 19'th at 9pm EST. We also had the pleasure of being joined by Decapitated Dan!

Voters are allowed to vote once, and it is recommended that everyone listen to the rationales presented on the CoC Podcast, as well as follow the debate here in the forums before voting. Voting will be closed at 9pm EST August 26'th.

To win a fight, the fighter merely needs to subdue his/her opponent. Subdue can be anything from restraining to killing.

Let's get it on!!!




Versus

Iron Fist

Click here http://marvel.wikia.com/Daniel_Rand_(Earth-616)to learn more about Iron Fist.



Environment
Limbo



Click here http://marvel.wikia.com/Limbo_(Demonic) to learn more about Limbo.

Fighters are teleported into their environment at opposite ends. They have the full use of the environment and all of its resources.[/center]

I love both of these characters, so I thought I would throw in some quick scans showing how awesome this fight would be!

To me, this is the best match-up we've ever had. Two great hand-to-hand characters.

Haven't we had this matchup once before?

Wolverine
- Has been in limbo before, went into berserker rage: demons would be scared.
- Logan has 80+ more years fighting experience.
- Comes down to: who wants to win more.
- In limbo, Wolverine can cut loose and will hold nothing back.
- Because he will be berzerking, his stamina will outlast Danny. **Counterpoint: Limbo will effect Logan and he will tire out faster.
- Logan was hit by a train: Walked away. Stamina will outlast Danny.
- Doesn't think fight will be ranged as they will both need to fight off demons to fight each other.
- Adamantium vs Flesh: Adamantium wins. Danny gets stabbed in the heart: He's done.

Questions that Speech needs to address:
- Can Danny focus Chi in limbo?
- Is there even Chi in Limbo?
- Example of Danny using Chi in Limbo before is needed.
**Chi exist inside the person, so wherever Danny is, his Chi is there also. Per Eli.


Iron Fist
- In sparring match, Logan said he was fighting at level 6, Danny at 3 ** Counterpoint: Dan said 5.
- In that sparring match, took Logan a bit to knock Danny down.
- Logan has no ranged attacks: Iron Fist does. Will fire Chi at stalactites and cause them to fall on Logan, or open up the ground underneath him by punching it. Can infuse rock with Chi and use them as projectiles.
- Logan was beat by Sabretooth: Danny is 10 times stronger.
- Dannys strength is more than Logan can handle.
- Logan is a "meat and potatoes" fighter: Danny is better than that.
- Iron Fist power has moved mountains: Logan is weaker than a mountain.
- Danny has subdued multiple opponents in seconds: Logan isn't fast enough to hit Danny.
- Logan doesn't have the strength to knock him out.
- Danny has more than long nails to finish an opponent, hits faster and harder.

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Pretty easy one to type out! Iron Fist has his hands full with this one: and I think its too much for him to handle. Logan is supremely athletic and has crazy reflexes. If Danny does do ranged attacks, he can dodge them. If Danny tries to pull stuff from the ceiling down on him, he can dodge them too.

Not only that, but if Logan has been in Limbo before and hes feared there, its very possible that Danny might have more issues fighting than Logan. Unless Chi blasts can blow holes through somebody (as opposed to just knocking them off their feet) hes at a disadvantage there. Logan will be cutting them to pieces.

Getting blasted off feet vs getting cut apart. Which would you rather have happen?

Logan will get close and then its hand to hand. One mistake by Danny and its over as he'll lose an arm or a head. I think the sheer ferocity of Logan + the location + the demons will just overwhelm Danny.

Logan doesn't knock Danny out: He kills him.

I can help with one of your questions mac.

Chi (in the Marvel Universe) is from inside a person. So, the chi that Danny uses comes from within himself. So, yes, Danny's chi exists anywhere he does.

Thank you very much! I updated the lil review post thingy. Still don't think it matters. Iron First will be papier mache when Logan is done with him.

Mac, Danny has the fighting experience of every Iron Fist that came before him. It's a legacy power that spans many generations. So Logan's 80+ years don't mean squat. And don't forget that he beat the mystical dragon BEFORE he gained his powers.

More after I get home...

I smoked the mystical dragon, I got the munchies. Your argument is invalid, lol.

Yes indeed. You and I argued this one in CoC V. And we did a helluva great job too.

http://www.comiccollectorlive.com/forum ... ts&t=29565

But I lost...I think due to block voting.

Just went through that fight. Wish we had that kind of dialogue in these forums.....

That was a great fight indeed!

I read the first page and I feel even better about wolverine.

I can see that a lot of what you typed is from lack of knowing much about Iron Fist. Logan's claws are nothing more than another bladed weapon and Danny has trained against edged weapons just like Logan's and fought against many enemies who use those types of weapons. They won't matter. Apparently you must not have looked at the scan of Iron Fist as DD attacking Logan in one of his MANY vulnerable spots! He isn't using his Iron Fist power at all yet is still able to get the better of Logan by damaging his trachea and regardless of his healing factor he still needs to breathe. This is why Sabertooth would usually rip out Logan's throat if he wanted to end the fight.

We'll also dispell any idea that when Logan is in Limbo that he won't be attacked. The lower demons and imps are the ones that fear Logan. Not the higher ranking and more powerful demons that roam the realm. Danny is neither nor does he fear Logan.

Refresher:


Looks like those claws are really effective against billy clubs and that's about it.

And here's the outcome of that blow...looks like a SUBDUED Logan and that's Danny WITHOUT using ANDY Iron Fist powers.



Oh, and like I said in the show. When the two sparred Logan stated he was at a SIX and Danny stated he was going at a 3.



The enviroment isn't anything that will throw Danny off. He's fought demons and creatures throughout his career whether magic based or in the 8th City where he demolished most of his opponents while having a major injury.

When the two meet up Danny has plenty of options available to him way before Logan closes the gap. Danny can strike the ground with enough force to open a fissure causing Logan to fall into the lakes of fire and tons of rock. Iron Fist has his ranged chi attacks that can hit with enough force to knock Logan out. He won't be able to dodge them all or evade the explosive concussive force from any that hit close to him. He'll be knocked off of his feet and again easy pickings for a follow up attack.

Iron Fist is stronger, faster, and has a wider range of attacks to put Logan down. Period.

That was a really good thread BTW.

Would Dannys concussive blasts be more powerful than the Hulk?


Logan seems to be just fine after getting hit with the force of many, MANY tons to cause a 300lb human to fly over 200 Miles. Do you have any idea how much force that would take, to hit somebody so hard that they had the intertia to fly over 200 miles? Factoring in wind resistance, hitting a random bird... It would have to be hundreds of TONS.

***Edit*** If I calculated it properly (which I didn't)... 640,208 tons. That number is grossly UNDERESTIMATED because I can't factor in wind resistance and whatnot. Thats over a billion pounds of force. Its times like this I wish I had paid more attention in math class :p

I'd like to see a scan of Danny opening the ground up enough so its too large for Wolverine to jump across or around.

Yeah, I think the difference is that there are less players in our game these days. That's a plus and a minus. It's a plus because we've all gotten to know each other and we don't have any issues like we used to have, but the minus is that we don't have as many people arguing in the forums. I wonder if during the next break from the podcast, if we should do a forum-based contest like the old days just to "chum up the water."

And you also don't have you and me arguing either to be fair, so there's that. But that was one of our better fights, no doubt. I never minded losing against someone who argued their point well. Even when I was managing Wolverine in that fight, I could see it going either way, and that's how I feel about this one too. I think Logan and Danny are really well-matched these days. This is going to be the toughest decision yet for me.

That was a fun fight for sure.

This one will be very close. I'm hoping Dan will get on and do some arguing for Wolverine, and not leave it all up to mac. I'll let Speech do all of the pro Iron Fisting.

I haven't seen any scans showing the Chi blasts to be more than a few feet. Thats not exactly a very ranged attack at all (though it is ranged compared to Wolverines attacks).
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In scans, it's been shown that wolverine can indeed dodge bullets. The reaction time to do that would have to be incredible. I think the scan showing Danny as DareDevil punching wolverine is bolloks since he wasn't expecting that type of speed out of DD.

Knowing he's up against Danny, he would be ready (plus hes familiar with his attacks and strategies.) I don't see him getting Fisted because he'll be ready for that attack and can avoid it.

Even if he WAS hit, he wasn't knocked out the the Hulk, he won't be knocked out by Danny. He'll just be thrown away and get pissed off.

Here's Wolverine back in his Savage Bone Claws days against Shang Chi (take note of Shang's comments).





Some of Wolverine's teachings:





In those pages, Wolverine notes:
"When it comes to fightin', I've had plenty of different teachers over the years.
From the wolves and wild beasts of teh great white north to teh million dollar murder techs of Wepaon X.
From the seediest cutthroats in the back alleys of madripoor to the most exalted combat priests of the Shi-Ar throneworld.
From some of the most honorable Samurai to ever pick up a sword to the most vicious bastards who've ever grown claws or fangs.
The greatest fighters of teh distant past and the far-flung future men and mutants, animals and aliens, and even a god or two.
I've learned from them all."



Wolverine is MORE than a capable combatant and although Danny might have "inherent experience", Logan's actually lived it. He's seen more action than Danny could ever even dream of.

He's been through hell. He's been shown to have to fight for his life against a "Reaper" everytime he's fatally wounded (Casualties of War: Wolverine). He's fought on distant planets and alternate realities.

What Iron Fist can do is simply a fraction of what Wolverine's ever been up against and Wolverine's walked away victorious in the majority of confrontations he's been in.

As noted by Jeff in the old CoC thread as well, Wolverine has withstood punches from The Hulk. A "man" capable of splitting planets in half with his punches and the strength to bring tectonic plates together.

Danny might be able to punch a train and a helicarier, but so can the Hulk.

This means that Danny will have to rely on much more than his "Iron Fist" to even consider walking away from this one. He would need to outlast Wolverine.. and not many people can outlast Wolverine.

All of these points about strength are great and all, but I have a question for all of us. Who is the better hand to hand fighter? This won't necessarily determine the fight's outcome, but it will help.

Well, Wolverine is The Best There Is.

With all Wolverine has seen and all of the knowledge he has gained across so many forms of combat without specializing in one specific thing like Chi, is what makes Wolverine a better fighter. His adaptability. Wolverine also has an edge as he's willing to take risks needed, even if that means sacrificing his own body.

If he see's an opening in Danny at the cost of receiving a major blow, Wolverine will take the shot anyway because it's all Wolverine needs, is one opening.

Let's see how Chi deals with Adamntium claws through the sternum.

Depends on who the writer is and what book you are reading!
This is the problem with this type of fight!

hand to hand: They're probably close to even.

Adamantium claws to hand: not so much. You can only parry so many punches. If Iron Fist hits wolverine: so what? Hulk hit him: He was fine. One swing-and-a-miss and Danny has holes in him. No, he doesn't have holes, Dannys arms and legs are cut off.

He'd look something like this:

I think a common theme can be seen with these two. One of them is a finely honed hand to hand fighter. One of them is a finely honed hand to hand fighter when he is forced to stop being what he is, slow down, and try to go back to some old method he was taught or something like that.

Writers differ, but that ^^ seems to be what has been the trend with these two over the years.